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now they're trying to blame the romney/ryan ticket for making this an issue. and with respect to iraq, we have the same position before the withdrawal, which was we agreed with the obama administration. let's have a status of forces agreement to make sure that we secure our gains. the vice president was put in charge of those negotiations by president obama. and he failed to get the agreement. we don't have a status of force agreement because they failed to get one. that's what we are talking about. and when it comes to our veterans, we owe them a great debt of gratitude for what they have done for us, including your son, beau. but we also want to make sure that we don't lose the things that we fought so hard to get. with respect to afghanistan, the 2014 deadline, we agree with the 2014 transition. but what we also want to do is make sure that we're not projecting weakness abroad, and that's what's happening here. this benghazi issue would be a tragedy in and of itself, but unfortunately it's indicative of a broader problem, and that is what we are watching on
now they're trying to blame the romney/ryan ticket for making this an issue. and with respect to iraq, we have the same position before the withdrawal, which was we agreed with the obama administration. let's have a status of forces agreement to make sure that we secure our gains. the vice president was put in charge of those negotiations by president obama. and he failed to get the agreement. we don't have a status of force agreement because they failed to get one. that's what we are talking...
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. >> i was proud of paul ryan the other night, so proud of mitt romney and folks we will have another great debate next week. >> some say romney conducted a few practice town halles with swing state voters. >> now with, this time around those candidates will also have to spend a lot of time on foreign policy. that will likely be a big topic of conversation during the town hall and again during the third debate which will focus on that subject. left smer. >> kristin, thank you. >>> david, good morning, good to see you. >> good morning, lester. >> let's talk about the upcoming debate. i'm wondering if vice president biden made it more difficult for the froze have a come back. and i wonder if mitt romney set a pretty high bar for himself in the last one. >> mitt romney has to sustain what he has, not just on style, but on substance, and do the things he did effectively in the first debate. the vice president was so aggressive and over the top in ways both pleasing and offensive to others. that is just not president obama's style, as a politics, as a person. so i think he will find his ow
. >> i was proud of paul ryan the other night, so proud of mitt romney and folks we will have another great debate next week. >> some say romney conducted a few practice town halles with swing state voters. >> now with, this time around those candidates will also have to spend a lot of time on foreign policy. that will likely be a big topic of conversation during the town hall and again during the third debate which will focus on that subject. left smer. >> kristin,...
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let me ask you about the romney-ryan ticket. did they establish themselves? did they pass the threshold of being presidential enough? >> yes. >> yes, i think association yes, definitely. >> i join the chorus. chris: this weekend marks the 50th anniversary of the cuban missile cry sifments president john f. kennedy and khrushchev faced each other over 13 days and much of that time they faced down the hawks on both sides, with spy plane photos showing the russians assem bling missiles in cuba capable of hitting new york, and the top advisors, including the chief of staff of the air force to authorize immediate air strikes before the missiles could be armed by the soviets. kennedy had to weigh the hawks' advice against the reality that no air strike could be 100% effective. and the possibilities that russian retaliation could target berlin and thereby trigger an all-out nuke yar war, as robert kennedy wrote, "the final list of the cuban missile crisis is the importance of placing ourselves in the other country's shoes." president kennedy understood that the sovi
let me ask you about the romney-ryan ticket. did they establish themselves? did they pass the threshold of being presidential enough? >> yes. >> yes, i think association yes, definitely. >> i join the chorus. chris: this weekend marks the 50th anniversary of the cuban missile cry sifments president john f. kennedy and khrushchev faced each other over 13 days and much of that time they faced down the hawks on both sides, with spy plane photos showing the russians assem bling...
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paul ryan came in, had to defend mitt romney. had to prove he was president. god forbid if he was president. there wasn't a wipeout in this debate. both sides came in, thinking we'll leave prosecute what we have to do. >> let's go to our panelist, joe biden. >> show me a policy where you take responsibility. by the way, the great recession, it fell out of the sky it came from this man voting to put two wars on a credit card and put a preskrichgs drug benefit on the credit card, a trillion dollar tax cut for the very wealthy. >> a quick takeaway. >> i think joe biden did do his boss a lot of help tonight. on substance, i think it was a draw. each side will draw a lot of encouragement from it. on style, i think paul ryan won the debate. and that is, the biden, the dismissive laughs, shouting, interruptions, ryan was calmer and more presidential on style, not substance. on substance, i thought it was a draw. >> it was condescending to paul ryan and i could have done with a lot less eye rolling and chuckling on the part of joe biden. however, i thought it was a gr
paul ryan came in, had to defend mitt romney. had to prove he was president. god forbid if he was president. there wasn't a wipeout in this debate. both sides came in, thinking we'll leave prosecute what we have to do. >> let's go to our panelist, joe biden. >> show me a policy where you take responsibility. by the way, the great recession, it fell out of the sky it came from this man voting to put two wars on a credit card and put a preskrichgs drug benefit on the credit card, a...
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now we're coming up to romney and ryan. not this debate specifically coming after president obama's gaffe before. >> that was a big thing for everybody here in the room. this was a big debate obviously because of president obama's performance last time. glen, that's why you paid a lot of attention here tonight, correct? >> yes, i think biden came on real strong and confident. i think he needed to do that because obama's performance last week was disappointing. >> and do you think the president will be up to it now that the bar's been raised next week? >> we'll see. >> you're still undecided. >> yes. >> sam, you're still undecided. you gave me an answer earlier. you said, you know, they've been running for president for months and months and months. you have the internet, newspapers, radio, tv. you're getting bombarded by ads here. why can't you make up your mind? >> as i said before, we work for a living. you know, a lot of us get up at 4:00 a.m., go to work for 12, 14 hours. we're at home with our kids. we're not doing thi
now we're coming up to romney and ryan. not this debate specifically coming after president obama's gaffe before. >> that was a big thing for everybody here in the room. this was a big debate obviously because of president obama's performance last time. glen, that's why you paid a lot of attention here tonight, correct? >> yes, i think biden came on real strong and confident. i think he needed to do that because obama's performance last week was disappointing. >> and do you...
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unfortunately, the burden is on romney and ryan. we already know what to expect with biden and with obama. but unfortunately, romney and ryan have the burden to say we can change the trajectory of the conversation of what's going on in the country and do it well, and that didn't happen with clarity and conviction last night. >> i half agree with carol on that point. but the other part of the equation -- >> i don't think you can agree with that point, because the only poll i have seen about undecided was done by any major network was cbs and it was pretty clear who won the debate amongst uncommitted voters, ryan 31%, biden 50%. he smashed him which was my reading of it in the moment. >> look, people are voting right now in ohio. so if you've made up your mind in ohio and you watched last night's debate, you were energized and went out to the polls and voted, that makes an impact on the election. governor romney can't win without ohio. there are, there is a narrow sliver of voters that are still in play in some of these states. i thin
unfortunately, the burden is on romney and ryan. we already know what to expect with biden and with obama. but unfortunately, romney and ryan have the burden to say we can change the trajectory of the conversation of what's going on in the country and do it well, and that didn't happen with clarity and conviction last night. >> i half agree with carol on that point. but the other part of the equation -- >> i don't think you can agree with that point, because the only poll i have...
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of romney-ryan and obama-biden. that's what we're debating tonight. >> why do people watch a vice presidential debate? do they watch it for a policy debate, or do they watch it to see can these guys become president of the united states? >> this stuff is always anecdotal. it's like sports. people have an opinion out of these debates. i think about it more as this month. these few weeks, the debate phase of the campaign. up until now, the entire campaign is about tv ads, surrogates arguing on televis n television, media pundits providing the analysis. and what was striking about last week's debate between governor romney and president obama, first time 90 minutes unfiltered, these two men going face to face, challenging one another. that's what this is about. it's just about suddenly we get to see the two leaders, in this case, the two vps. >> sort of philosophical. just part two of this philosophical debate. >> correct. it's the only moment in the campaign. last week 70 million viewers. this week, who knows how many
of romney-ryan and obama-biden. that's what we're debating tonight. >> why do people watch a vice presidential debate? do they watch it for a policy debate, or do they watch it to see can these guys become president of the united states? >> this stuff is always anecdotal. it's like sports. people have an opinion out of these debates. i think about it more as this month. these few weeks, the debate phase of the campaign. up until now, the entire campaign is about tv ads, surrogates...
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it is strength in the oval office. >> but one point that biden made, mayor, is calling out ryan and romney, when you hear things like what he was talking about, that there is weakness. do you really want another war? an important question. >> all we see right now is bush-like bluster. that's what we see from them. and it will take us to the exact same place. this contrast in investigations around the original 9/11 attacks, there wasn't openness. there wasn't transparency. there wasn't the kind of honesty. when you look at what we're going through right now, as horrific as it is, we are getting the facts out in two weeks. we're getting it out very quickly. and regarding strength, are you kidding me? the president of the united states through drone strikes and a series of other measures has been stronger than george bush ever was. he is the person, whether you all like it or not, who is the person that brought osama bin laden to justice. that's barack obama. and they may not like his temperament or all of the rest, but alex has to acknowledge, which way would you want this dealt with? the pr
it is strength in the oval office. >> but one point that biden made, mayor, is calling out ryan and romney, when you hear things like what he was talking about, that there is weakness. do you really want another war? an important question. >> all we see right now is bush-like bluster. that's what we see from them. and it will take us to the exact same place. this contrast in investigations around the original 9/11 attacks, there wasn't openness. there wasn't transparency. there...
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ryan infected by moderate massachusetts mitt romney? >> well, i think what you heard this morning when i asked him this question, and he as mitted there were differences between them but he also tried to say the differences between romney and ryan pale in comparison to the differences between the obama ticket and the romney ticket, but he seemed to indicate that ryan's job is to defend the romney plan and the romney budget. i do think what chris points out, that what biden's strategy is going to be is to try to create a split, is try to put him in an awkward position, make him defend one or the other. i think one thing to watch for tonight is it's my understanding -- from when i was talking to the campaigns, if they get one thing out of biden tonight, the obama campaign, that is to make the base of the democratic party feel better tonight, that he gets a little aggressive, that he goes after some core issues like abortion, like contraception to make the base feel better. on the ryan side, they know they sort of have in a weird way they
ryan infected by moderate massachusetts mitt romney? >> well, i think what you heard this morning when i asked him this question, and he as mitted there were differences between them but he also tried to say the differences between romney and ryan pale in comparison to the differences between the obama ticket and the romney ticket, but he seemed to indicate that ryan's job is to defend the romney plan and the romney budget. i do think what chris points out, that what biden's strategy is...
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. >> paul ryan set to clear any confusion about the romney/ryan ticket. >> i'm a pro-life candidate, i'll be a pro-life president. >> our position is consistent and hasn't changed. >> he can't clear up confusion on his own budget. >> i don't have the time -- it would take me too long to go through all the math. >> oh, brother. just spin already. >> i just got to ask what's your personal best? >> 1under three. >> holy smoke. >> i stand by what i said, whatever it was. >>> we are pumped up, fired up, and jacked up with just hours until tonight's first and only face-off between vice president joseph biden and vice presidential nominee paul ryan. and what was once regarded as a popcorn side show has taken on far greater significance in the wake of the president's less than scintillating performance last week. democrats are anxious, republicans are hungry for a surge, and as ryan and biden take the stage tonight, they have a chance to influence this election at a volatile moment. and the president himself knows he's got to push harder against his ever-shifting rival. speaking just moments
. >> paul ryan set to clear any confusion about the romney/ryan ticket. >> i'm a pro-life candidate, i'll be a pro-life president. >> our position is consistent and hasn't changed. >> he can't clear up confusion on his own budget. >> i don't have the time -- it would take me too long to go through all the math. >> oh, brother. just spin already. >> i just got to ask what's your personal best? >> 1under three. >> holy smoke. >> i stand...
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joe biden simply dismantled the romney/ryan world view. but also talk about how the right wingers are trying to make a big deal out of joe biden's smile. so what? i would have been outright laughing in paul ryan's face. joe biden was fed up and who could blame him? >> with all due respect, that's a bunch of malarkey. >> and why is that so? >> because not a single thing he said is accurate. >> this is a bunch of stuff. >> what do you mean a bunch of stuff? >> it's simply inaccurate. >> it's irish. >> thanks for the translation. okay. >> malarkey. a bunch of stuff. i love it. i love it. biden systematically took apart ryan's arguments for less government, let's accountability, let's community. it got so bad, paul ryan was driven to drink. literally. he went back to that cup of water over and over again. by our last count, at least 21 time. what's the matter there, mr. ryan? got a little cotton mouth? last night the romney/ryan effort was exposed as a shield for the extreme far right and vice president biden drove that point home again and ag
joe biden simply dismantled the romney/ryan world view. but also talk about how the right wingers are trying to make a big deal out of joe biden's smile. so what? i would have been outright laughing in paul ryan's face. joe biden was fed up and who could blame him? >> with all due respect, that's a bunch of malarkey. >> and why is that so? >> because not a single thing he said is accurate. >> this is a bunch of stuff. >> what do you mean a bunch of stuff? >>...
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down on stuff that we weren't sure if the romney/ryan ticket is going to stick with. he is in favor of privatizing social security and overturning "roe v. wade" and making abortion criminal. on afghanistan, nobody has pressed them on afghanistan. now we know they are going to stick to the 2014 deadline but they also think that deadline is dangerous and a bad idea. that's the sign of a campaign that hasn't been pressed very much on that issue, that it made so little sense when they had to. >> very quickly, you obviously think biden won, but would you acknowledge that ryan passed the threshold test proving he was a plausible president and vice president if the need arose? >> on everything except foreign policy. i think paul ryan was out of his depth on foreign policy. maybe it wasn't fair to have him with a foreign correspondent moderator and former chair of the senate foreign relations committee there talking about foreign policy. there he bottomed out, and other than that he did just fine. >> we'll see you tonight on msnbc. >> we want to turn and take another perspect
down on stuff that we weren't sure if the romney/ryan ticket is going to stick with. he is in favor of privatizing social security and overturning "roe v. wade" and making abortion criminal. on afghanistan, nobody has pressed them on afghanistan. now we know they are going to stick to the 2014 deadline but they also think that deadline is dangerous and a bad idea. that's the sign of a campaign that hasn't been pressed very much on that issue, that it made so little sense when they had...
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what does he think of the romney ryan ticket? he will answer that and more. >> this is a view of new york from 57th and 5th. tiffany's right here. you have the skating rink in central park right outside. often times i have people sitting in my office they are looking at the view they don't know what i am saying. they have no idea what i am saying. that's a great time to make a deal with them. >> welcome back. we continue with donald trump. i look at the world situation. you deal with the economy i look at the world burning in middle east and islamists and greece and spain and decline of the you euro. 16 trillion in debt. 6 trillion under obama alone. i am worried. i am really really worried about america and the future and lack of leadership at a very important time. what's your worst fear? >> i am worried also. that's one of the reasons i am so involved. i don't need to do this. i don't love doing it. you are a great friend and a friend of mine in the true sense. i would rather be doing other things right now. it's late. you wor
what does he think of the romney ryan ticket? he will answer that and more. >> this is a view of new york from 57th and 5th. tiffany's right here. you have the skating rink in central park right outside. often times i have people sitting in my office they are looking at the view they don't know what i am saying. they have no idea what i am saying. that's a great time to make a deal with them. >> welcome back. we continue with donald trump. i look at the world situation. you deal...
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how ryan prepped for the big night, and what are the main goals for romney and ryan's camp? what are they, and what do they want to say? let's go to robert costa from the national review online danville, cnbc contributor. the debate sunday way. bob costa as you talked to the romney/ryan people today, what phrases jump out? what do you think he wants to get across in at least a minimal way? >> they want to defend mitt romney's positions. they want to go after the obama economic record and reach out to new voters, especially view the voters who may find ryan appealing >> i keep talking about this youth thing. i think what ryan represents as a well-informed smart 42-year-old guy and does his body crunches and listens to music on his ipod and so forth, i think that's a tremendous plus for romney, i really do. there's his picture up there. i think, you know, the youth vote is shifting to romney. it's not going to be like it was in 2008. >> that's exactly right, larry. one thing the ryan camp has pushed hard for is to have this debate be a sit-down debate and once he sits down at
how ryan prepped for the big night, and what are the main goals for romney and ryan's camp? what are they, and what do they want to say? let's go to robert costa from the national review online danville, cnbc contributor. the debate sunday way. bob costa as you talked to the romney/ryan people today, what phrases jump out? what do you think he wants to get across in at least a minimal way? >> they want to defend mitt romney's positions. they want to go after the obama economic record and...
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you had paul ryan embracing the across the board tax cut mitt romney is running on. he was pressed by martha, who did an excellent job exactly specifically you do to pay for that tax cut, totally evaded that. what happened was as happened on other issues, joe biden got frustrated. you saw biden, he variously was laughing, smiling, got angry at times. i think there were times at which that demeanor did not serve him well. ryan did not get flustered. did have some republican political strategists who i talked to during the debate thought ryan looked a little bit smug at times. ryan, of course, is young, he has to worry about looking like the junior varsity against the older guy. bottom line, i don't think anybody dominated the debate but i thought ryan did well and i think basically what we've done is set the table for the debate next week with obama and romney. that is going to determine what the next pivot in this race is. >> john, just to bring up a couple of points. we did have an informal poll on cnbc, about 3,000 people wrote in, based on what they have been writ
you had paul ryan embracing the across the board tax cut mitt romney is running on. he was pressed by martha, who did an excellent job exactly specifically you do to pay for that tax cut, totally evaded that. what happened was as happened on other issues, joe biden got frustrated. you saw biden, he variously was laughing, smiling, got angry at times. i think there were times at which that demeanor did not serve him well. ryan did not get flustered. did have some republican political strategists...
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have to do more explaining and in the first hour he did a better job hitting at romney than ryan did hitting at obama. i think ryan, though, was, came across as ernest, knowledgeable and polite, whereas especially in that first hour, joe biden was clearly playing by cable debate rules, which is interrupt and talk over your opponent at will. i think al is right that is going to enthuse democrats. i am not sure how it is going to play with undecided voters. me personally and i am not an undecided veert it came across as off putting, obnoxious and rude and i can guarantee that on the shows tomorrow morning and in the cable discussion going forward, tomorrow and into the weekend the biden smiles and the biden smirks and the biden interruptions will be a juicy topic for discussion. >> rose: mark hall snrin. >> halperin? >> well, i am mostly going to paraphrase what rich lowry just said, there are two things that clearly come out of this, one is the detrimentally base is going to be pleased that they thought, saw the somebody fighting on their behalf and being aggressive on a lot of big is
have to do more explaining and in the first hour he did a better job hitting at romney than ryan did hitting at obama. i think ryan, though, was, came across as ernest, knowledgeable and polite, whereas especially in that first hour, joe biden was clearly playing by cable debate rules, which is interrupt and talk over your opponent at will. i think al is right that is going to enthuse democrats. i am not sure how it is going to play with undecided voters. me personally and i am not an undecided...
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it is a clear contrast from the ann romney/ryan budget. -- from the ann romney/ryan budget. and all of these issues, it is a pretty clear choice. host: donna says from twitter, the democrats think biden won, the republicans think brian won, what a surprise. from "the washington post" -- at times, mr. joe biden struck us as condescending. >> that is the "washington post " leading editorial. the next call comes from ed in cleveland, ohio. caller: this is ted. i am a supporter of mitt romney. what i would like to say is what i watched last night several times joe biden had to interrupt him left and right, and that seems condescending. when joe biden said "finding what i say," i would like to heard paul ryan say does that mean you meant when you stood in front of people "i want to put you all in chains." that is it. thank you for c-span. host: another call from all file this morning. deborah. -- call from ohio this morning. deborah. caller: i am definitely an obama supporter. it comes down to planned parenthood. when i was 20 i found myself single and pregnant, and i went to pla
it is a clear contrast from the ann romney/ryan budget. -- from the ann romney/ryan budget. and all of these issues, it is a pretty clear choice. host: donna says from twitter, the democrats think biden won, the republicans think brian won, what a surprise. from "the washington post" -- at times, mr. joe biden struck us as condescending. >> that is the "washington post " leading editorial. the next call comes from ed in cleveland, ohio. caller: this is ted. i am a...
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>> mitt romney put paul ryan on the ticket. that's not running away from the plan. >> but i mean -- he didn't embrace the ryan budget. it was too tough for him perhaps? >> correct me if i'm wrong, my understanding governor romney has been complimentary of the ryan budget plan and recognizes that we need to make reforms so that the big entitlement programs will be there for the next generation we need to tighten the belt on discreti discretionary spending. i disagree. >> mitt romney's tax proposals, because he has said that he can cut taxes without blowing up the deficit, without being deficit neutral, and at the same time keep defense spending. >> yeah. >> increase the defense budget. how does that work? >> governor romney said he can lower marginal tax rates and generate offsetting revenue so we don't increase the side of the deficit. >> how do you generate that? >> you reduce the number of write-offs and loopholes in some combinations. >> which would you reduce? he's not been specific. >> he's provided more specificity than t
>> mitt romney put paul ryan on the ticket. that's not running away from the plan. >> but i mean -- he didn't embrace the ryan budget. it was too tough for him perhaps? >> correct me if i'm wrong, my understanding governor romney has been complimentary of the ryan budget plan and recognizes that we need to make reforms so that the big entitlement programs will be there for the next generation we need to tighten the belt on discreti discretionary spending. i disagree. >>...
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romney said today under duress that the romney/ryan position is the romney/ryan position, there's no difference between them. and he said you'll hear more about it at the vice presidential debate tomorrow. i bet you will. joining us now is steve kornacki, co-host of "the cycle." thanks for being here. >> thanks for having me. >> the democrats have been aggressive in driving their campaigning on this issue, because they think that's a key issue for locking up the women's vote. with this walkback, this attempted and failed walkback that happened within the last 24 hours from the romney campaign, do you think that's going to have an impact there? >> yeah. there's some interesting data that came out in the last few days which i think is what was initially behind what mitt romney said, taking a more moderate position on abortion. first you had this poll that came out in ohio, showing obama ahead of romney by four. the gender gap in this thing was astounding. among men, romney had a 16-point lead in ohio. among women, 60-38, obama. that is like a 38-point gender gap. i have not seen someth
romney said today under duress that the romney/ryan position is the romney/ryan position, there's no difference between them. and he said you'll hear more about it at the vice presidential debate tomorrow. i bet you will. joining us now is steve kornacki, co-host of "the cycle." thanks for being here. >> thanks for having me. >> the democrats have been aggressive in driving their campaigning on this issue, because they think that's a key issue for locking up the women's...
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couple of weeks from the romney-ryan campaign. a week ago, we had a presidential debate, mitt romney all of a sudden said there was no $5 trillion cu tax cut. i imagine that will be a topic. paul ryan once said he didn't have time to do the math on the tax cut. openfully tonight over 90 minutes he can do the math for us. >> bret: you even concedeed on the show with the deduction and credits while they haven't listed them specifically it wouldn't $5 trillion. >> here is what i said. he put out a number of tax cuts whether it's the estate tax, lowering everyone's rate by 20%, getting rid of the amt, payroll tax, number of tax cut he put on the table. the sum of the tax cuts is $5 trillion. >> bret: he said in the debate? you capped it, set a cap you could reach it. tax policy center which you cite, campaign cites says that you could reach the number that he is talking about -- >> no, it didn't say that. if you could reach the number -- you could add up the deduction and loopholes to $5 trillion if you raise taxes on the middle class
couple of weeks from the romney-ryan campaign. a week ago, we had a presidential debate, mitt romney all of a sudden said there was no $5 trillion cu tax cut. i imagine that will be a topic. paul ryan once said he didn't have time to do the math on the tax cut. openfully tonight over 90 minutes he can do the math for us. >> bret: you even concedeed on the show with the deduction and credits while they haven't listed them specifically it wouldn't $5 trillion. >> here is what i said....
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some people say he started the bleeding of paul ryan and mitt romney, but i think his job in the debate is to end last week for the obama-biden campaign. first i want to ask you, do you think he was able to accomplish that. >> i think he did. he certainly did that last night. he changed the narrative. whether or not the administration was back on its heels, afraid or unable to engage unable to loosen up and take it to the other side, we saw that and more. interestingly enough we have a retroactive answer to why the president last week may be seemed a little stiff, maybe didn't seem so jovial. didn't loosen up and try to engage mitt romney. as we saw last night it can be jarring. not everybody liked it. >> that's something i want to ask you thomas frank this style, are we reading too much into it or did it matter a lot last night. >> it's a vice presidential debate, so by definition it did not matter a whole lot. i tell you, i had two really different reactions to it. i read the debate before i came to the studio. i read the transcription of the debate and i agreed with joe biden on almo
some people say he started the bleeding of paul ryan and mitt romney, but i think his job in the debate is to end last week for the obama-biden campaign. first i want to ask you, do you think he was able to accomplish that. >> i think he did. he certainly did that last night. he changed the narrative. whether or not the administration was back on its heels, afraid or unable to engage unable to loosen up and take it to the other side, we saw that and more. interestingly enough we have a...